there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. What I have also seen on the range at 25 yards, while shooting steel silhouette time after time, was the 9mm would fail to kick the silhouette out of the track 7 out of 10 times without placing another shot. The biggest determining factors were and have always been budget and of course, what the inept FBI is carrying. Take it from me, a physics major. Not to mention costs savings in ammo which is a big deal both in the government and civilian perspective. I know some are going to maybe chuckle but when I want a deep concealed handgun, I go with my PF9 Keltec. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. Riley, love your artical. We all, sitting safe and pretty, can discuss this and that but we are NOT in their shoes. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. One or two out of every twenty or more perfect placement leaves me desirous of a heavy hitter. With the way things are going today I decided it was time to carry again. The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones. The 9mm is being adopted by military and law enforcement due to its higher capacity and lower price, as well as the reduced recoil which increases accuracy for many who find the .45 a bit much to handle. Maybe if you were trying to make 100+ yard shot thatd make a little difference. The .45 is a less desirable round because of Air Resistance? Sorry for the rant. Your shot placement will be perfect. For two decades, MARSOC operators have been allowed to carry custom-built Colt 1911s chambered in .45ACP. When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. The reason is recoil. Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century. The beautiful country in south east Asia. I'll tell you what DOES impact penetrationit is the frontal area of the bullet and its relative friction and resistance as it impacts a body and attempts to travel through. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. Now thats hilarious. Give me a break!! I think that the argument here has gone the wrong direction. A century? I know this is off topic. In September 2014, LooserRounds posted an article titled FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection. Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. The 9mm travels a great deal faster than the .45, with average muzzle velocity averaging between 1100-1200 FPS. Repeat over and over, and keep doing so even after proficiency is achieved. quick defense trigger and has an extended 17rnd clip. I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. In my book Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer, I point out that after the FBI shootout in Miami, the FBI Firearms Training Unit, under the leadership of Unit Chief John Hall, tested 9mm, 10mm and .45 caliber rounds. Yes, Hugh, I have shot both rounds into a human and I can say this. Practice thats all it takes. So it should not come as a surprise that while the DoD's call for submissions for the new military Modular Handgun System XM17 contract doesn't specify a particular caliber or size, they will most likely settle on a new 9mm sidearm. Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. But you have to shoot the gun your most accurate with and most comfortable with but if you dont seat the grip of any pistol in the web of the hand deeply all guns no matter what the caliber the gun will whip in the hand. and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. Avoid contact with other people's blood and body fluids. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. Nobody I know whos been in the service liked the M9. Fired expert m14. With those factors in mind, Id prefer one of the calibers most likely to immediately incapacitate and prevent return fire. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. thanks for your time, greg. John Michael Callahan served in law enforcement for 44 years. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. Very smart Chris ! WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. I enjoyed reading all of this info but didnt once read the real reason the .45 was originally better at stopping than the .36 cal. When the weather is colder and requires a jacket or coat, I carry my Glock 30s, extra mag for either. The threshold for lung damage occurs at about 15 psi blast overpressure. I have found that I prefer the 9mm as an EDC concealed carry. This accurately stuff doesnt make too much sense when you have a bonsai charge advancing on you and your rifle was not available. Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! Our PD Captain has suggested that if I wish to carry, as a civilian, that I carry a .45 cal. From my time in the USMC, I saw a certain population fall in love with the 9mm bc of its easier to handle recoil. Yes, yeas I have. So any caliber is better than none. Handgun wounds include the first three of these factors, but generally do not include the fourth. I used to work in inner city and poor crime ridden areas when all I had was the 45. More rounds the better. Look at the Walter Scott shooting. Then moved to 10mm (after the 1986 Miami shootout). Some bullets are so fast, they dont deliver the force of the bullet. Long time reloader right here as well which is why I couldnt believe when I read what I did in that other articleclearly someone that doesnt understand how these things work!! In winter I concealed carry a 1911. ago Haha. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. One had a 9mm one had a .45who is gonna get up quicker to finish the job. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. to stop the threat. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. Now for long engagements that are seen more in military ops and where fire suppression matters most I prefer 9mm. the article mentions that where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. Okay, I have to give them props on this part of the statement because this is 100% correct. People kill people. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. The test results disclosed that the .45 round displaced an average of 4.22 cubic inches of tissue, the 10mm round 4.11 cubic inches and the 9mm round 2.82 cubic inches. 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. 7.62 isn't pistol ammunition though. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. During the shootout, Special Agent Jerry Dove fired a lightweight, high-velocity 9mm round that struck murder/armored car robbery suspect Michael Lee Platt in the upper right arm. Keep in mind, competing for government contracts is expensive, time-consuming, and maintaining an awarded contract can be a royal pain in the you-know-what! Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. Which would put a bullet in the lower chest area with variance of the bullet which can be 2-3 or even 5-6. The projectile, a 7.62 x 39 bullet, hit the House majority whip with between 370 and 1,550 foot-pounds of force. Its certain to elicit a wide variety of opinions and almost as likely to stir up an argument. At 70, I choose to go small & straight! He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. Using the cone attack gives you a low ammo condition that imposes disadvantage on attack rolls until you reload, and you have 2 reloads per day. Oh boy, that could start a whole new area of discussion 1911 vs 1926, most common bullet weights, etc. They argue that the 9mm round has more penetrating power because the round faces less air resistance on its nose as it flies through the air. What kind of insane non-scientific reasoning is this? The FBI has made a pragmatic decision that the 147 grain 9mm bullet is the best bullet for its agents because it allows for more rounds in the handgun. In his 1989 treatise, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Supervisory Special Agent Urey Patrick explained that the goal of an officer in a life-threatening shooting incident is to incapacitate the adversary as quickly as possible. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. As a non operator and someone who cant get to the range much an article I read made sense to me as simple as it may seem. And fyi, if you are an expert at shooting a needle into peoples medulla, caliber is irrelevant until the large size becomes combersome. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. This is just one of them: https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/. I have never shot a people. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. Do give the Walther PPS serious consideration. I carried a 1911 in Vietnam as well as a 12 ga. .45 stayed on the hip. I find the heavy slide helps with the .40 recoil and keeps the barrel from jumping. The past 45 years never needed more than one shot. Everyone should be mocking the .223 as a pea shooter. And I suspect it could very well be the Sig P320 as it is the epitome of modular.. The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. You're Dead: 5 Deadliest Bullets In The World They're just as important as the gun that fires them. Why is .45 acp so much better than 9mm? According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. What that means is that handgun bullets, as opposed to the devastating wound channels rifle projectiles can cause, are only just poking little holes in people. A 9 is a great backup. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. We need to dial back our expectations of what a pistol cartridge can and cant do as an instrument of CQB. Growing up in Alaska, I have shot more than a fair share of big game. Train, train train and when your done. arrow moving at what velocity.200 feet per second? Then you missed. In case you didn't get the memo, the FBI's ballistic testing labs are the best in the world, and they've been doing it for a long time. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. .45 ACP (230gr) One of the main reasons why military personnel and many LEOs made the switch to 9mm handguns was because of the deeper bullet penetration. Its a freaking tarantula. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. Hunt! I doubt a .45 would have allowed that.also know a guy who took 10 shots of 9mm at close range in a robbery and survived and is healthy and surfs, shooter must have had terrible aim. Let me now take you back to 1987. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 600 ft/s will penetrate 4' plate glass. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. But, this little word but often comes up in real life. Mainly because it is polymer from and not as well build and equipped as the Walther Q4. Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? What type of bullet is being fired? The one thing Ive learned and seen over a lot of shooting is that a 9mm with FMJ bullets is mostly useless. Whether fear or anger, adrenaline can make one shake. But good luck with and please enjoy the new Glock! It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. If you havent got JHP or ballistic tip bullets in the 9mm gun your in trouble. I have shot pigs, goats, and deer in several countries with rounds from .22 lr and mags, 9mm, .45 ACP and .45 colts and .44 sol and mags in handguns. In 1985, the US military replaced the .45 ACP with the 9mm round for its standard sidearm. There are four major handgun founding factors. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. Lee reloading gear. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. It's the most comprehensive and trusted online destination for law enforcement agencies and police departments worldwide. Many of the debate points industry experts and defense folks make are moot. A good hit from either will wreck an adversarys day . 9mm. Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets. But ideally you need a brush rifle. But we generally would refer to them as cartridges or rounds as a bullet is just the projectile portion encased in a cartridge and loaded into the firearm. The Marine Corps Times is not published by the Marine Corps. We put our money behind the 9mm round fired by an extremely well-trained marksman carrying a Glock 19, Mannweiler told Marine Corps Times. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! Which is better? It has a velocity of 1200-1600 ft/s and energy of 140-160 Joules. This is why, when training with a firearm, you should train for the center of mass, regardless of target anatomy or angle. But this doesnt mean that a 22 rimfire is the best caliber or even a good choice for head shots. .22lr is an assassins round yet we all have fun plinking around with it. The lack of penetration, compared to a 9mm ,from a 45 can be eliminated by using a long barrel , 5+, and +P rounds. Do your thing, your responsible for your actions! We were allowed to carry bone stock ( night sights ok. weapon purchased at our own expense ) Smith and Glock 21s ( It was the 2nd Gen Glock era. Previously, the classic .45-caliber Colt 1911 was one of three pistols that Raiders were allowed to carry, but now the 9mm Glock 19 is the only pistol that Marine special operators can take into battle, said Maj. Nick Mannweiler, a spokesman for Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command. What more and more people are choosing is CAPACITY. This remained the norm in the FBI until May 2014. There are already documented instances where .45 ACP also failed to get reliable stops on a bad guy. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. When a lot of agencies began switching to 9mm from .45 ACP and other heavier calibers, something became very apparent: the FMJ 9mm at high velocity tended It was modified to accept a detachable magazine and equipped with a folding stock. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. Platt was killed at the end of the gunfight, but not before unleashing deadly mayhem. The pool of cartridges in the study are grouped which makes the data integrity less reliable but each group of larger calibers exhibit significant percentage better lethality. Every round has its purpose. You could smell the gunpowder. The P227 Tacops holds 14 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber so 15 rounds is similar to the Glock. And they call themselves a forensics expert.. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. Guns dont kill people. The saga will never end. Asking that question around gun owners is like bringing up religion or politics at a party. Its probably just psychological, but real evidence that the .45 is more effective. A .50 Desert Eagle is no good if you cannot carry it and get it out and shoot it accurately and fairly quickly, no matter what the knock-down power if you were able to hit anything with it. It definitely doesnt mean the ability to kill the target. Yes, Alvin York killed seven Germans with seven rounds of .45 ACP ball, starting from almost 100m out, in front of superior officers who went out afterwards and kicked the dead Huns in the head before they made their reports. The earlier FBI testing left no doubt that tissue displacement was greater with the larger rounds. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. The temporary cavity is the hole in the target that briefly expands after immediate impact, only to collapse a fraction of a second later. Thank you Bill ! These are rounds designed to expand upon impact with a soft target. Because recoil obviously cant be observed and you have to shoot someone huh, I heard of a police officer shooting a dog 6 times with a 9 mm before being able to incapacitate the dog. The SEALS sure like their 45 acp, Mark 24 pistols (HK45 compact). Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. I carry a 9 as one of my CCW, a Sig P938. If you kill one, you take one out of battle. This was an interesting discussion. A .223 is just 55 grains. Both forget one major factor. Skorpion Ammo Type: 9 mm. Thats the secret. The latest testing shows that modern 9mm performs pretty much as well as the other common semi-auto options, and since it carries more rounds and is easier to shoot (and I dont care who you are, but it is easier/faster to shoot compared to the larger calibers), it is fairly sound logic to select the 9mm. So if my pill hit my target in a less than optimal body section with ball ammo, Ill opt for the bigger ball every time. JavaScript is disabled. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. Awareness of the injury (which often registers before pain), fear of death or greater injury, preconceived notions of what people do when theyre shot, as well as a simple desire to give up can all play a factor in psychologically incapacitating an attacker. Pretty broad pattern where adrenaline can also make hands shake. Taurus 45 If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. We can argue 9 vs 45. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. He came up in this world initially through his 8-year experience with a state-level law enforcement agency in Colorado. For those not in the military, go for what you want. Ammunition can really change performance. The objective of this study was to construct a Remember we started this country with every make and model of firearm known to man.Give our men our warriors the best.Let them choose the caliber they know better than anyone. He was a deputy sheriff. WebThe human body can survive relatively high blast overpressure without experiencing barotrauma. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. One writer mentioned the old adage about wounding one and it takes two more to remove him from the field of battle.
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45 acp damage human body